CBT vs EMDR vs. ART: What Are They? What’s the Difference? And What’s Right for Me
Show Notes:
In this episode of Real Life Counseling, Ryan Simpson, Dr. Ernie, LCSW and Dr. Judi Allen, LCSW explore the differences between three prominent therapy modalities: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), and Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART). They discuss the effectiveness, applications, and session dynamics of each approach, while also addressing common misconceptions and what clients can expect during their first therapy session. The conversation highlights the transformative power of these therapies in helping individuals overcome trauma and mental health challenges, concluding with inspiring stories of client success.
Takeaways
CBT focuses on the connection between thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.
EMDR helps clients process traumatic memories through bilateral stimulation.
ART is a faster, more targeted approach to trauma therapy.
All three modalities can be used for children, teens, and adults.
Therapists guide clients in choosing the right modality for their needs.
The first session is crucial for assessment and establishing a therapeutic relationship.
Common myths include the belief that therapy erases memories or is akin to hypnotism.
Therapy is a collaborative process between the client and therapist.
Clients often experience significant relief after just a few sessions of ART.
Therapy can lead to profound transformations and a sense of freedom.
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Transcript:
Ryan Simpson (02:22.392)
Welcome to Real Life Counseling, a podcast by The Counseling Corner. I'm Ryan and I'm here with Dr. Ernie, licensed clinical social worker and founder of The Counseling Corner. Today, we're diving into a question a lot of people have when they start exploring therapy. What's the difference between CBT, EMDR, and ART? These are three powerful approaches to counseling, but they work in very different ways. To help us unpack this, we're joined again today by Dr. Judi Allen, who specializes in these modalities. Dr. Judi, thanks for coming back.
Dr. Judi (02:51.997)
Thank you for having me, it's good to see you guys.
Ryan Simpson (02:54.892)
Yeah, absolutely. All right, let me get your bio real quick. For those who are just meeting you for the first time, Dr. Judi is a licensed clinical social worker and clinical director here at the counseling corner, who along with Dr. Ernie has advanced training in trauma-focused therapies, including accelerated resolution therapy. She's passionate about helping clients find healing through evidence-based approaches and guiding them to the therapy that best fits their needs. So I've got a bunch of questions about this somewhat technical topic for those who are
Ernie (03:00.149)
. .
Ryan Simpson (03:24.712)
I'm pretty informed about counseling. So if you're okay, I think we'll just jump in. Does that sound all right?
Dr. Judi (03:30.631)
Sounds good.
Ernie (03:31.525)
Sounds good. .
Ryan Simpson (03:31.862)
Okay, all right, well, before we get too complex, let's start simple. Dr. Judi, I'll send my first question to you. What exactly are CBT, EMDR, and Accelerated Resolution Therapy, or ART? Can you give us maybe just a plain English definition of those?
Dr. Judi (03:50.621)
Yeah, definitely. That's actually a good question. And I think sometimes we get clients who think they know what they're asking for when they just do the acronyms and they don't necessarily always know what it's about. So I will help you to kind of decode those acronyms. One of the things and I just kind of repeating something you said, Ryan, is I just want to make sure that our audience understands that everything is evidence based practice, which means that
Ernie (04:02.092)
.
Ryan Simpson (04:08.856)
great.
Dr. Judi (04:19.673)
All of these modalities have been tested as highly effective in treating various mental health issues. So, some of the, these modalities can be used for so many different types of conditions or emotional challenges or mental health challenges. So I'll start right in. So first CBT, I think that's the thing that most people hear when, when they associate, different modalities with counseling. So CBT stands for.
cognitive behavioral therapy. It is a very traditional form of therapy and it's been around for a very long time. It focuses on the connection between the thoughts, the feelings, and the behaviors. So we kind of like tie those things together to help a client to understand how and why they're thinking or behaving or feeling in a certain way.
So as therapists, we like to help them identify any unhelpful or negative thinking patterns that they might have and how those might then lead to challenging emotions and then even challenging behaviors. So we focus on helping them replace those unhealthy thought patterns, helping them to get improvement in moods, learn coping skills, and just really stopping some of those unhelpful or unhealthy behaviors.
So I will also mention that there is a trauma focused version of CBT that we are all trained in at the counseling corner. So that is something that's highly effective in working with trauma as well as many other types of emotional and mental health concerns.
Ryan Simpson (06:05.794)
Got it. So it kind of starts with the internal monologue and making that a lot more positive, maybe. Is that a good way to think about it?
Dr. Judi (06:13.221)
Yeah, that could be a good way of looking on it too. And like with those cognitive changes, helping them to reframe the way they're looking at it and seeing things and feeling about things and helping them with a more reality based perspective, in all honest.
Ryan Simpson (06:26.2)
because it all kind of flows out of your thought life,
Ernie (06:29.399)
Okay. Thank
Dr. Judi (06:29.935)
Right, right. So, I mean, as humans, it's all connected. Emotions, thoughts, and behaviors, you know, all of the come together and sometimes at the same time or sometimes triggering the other over time. So.
Ryan Simpson (06:42.382)
Got it. Okay, that makes sense. Can you break down EMDR for us?
Dr. Judi (06:46.769)
Yeah, certainly. Thank you. So EMDR is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. I know that's a mouthful, which is why everybody says EMDR. It is a very much more specialized form of therapy that's used to help people with trauma or in like highly distressful experiences they might have in their life. So this treatment comes from the idea that people can get stuck.
Ernie (06:53.051)
.
Ryan Simpson (06:59.342)
That makes sense.
Ernie (07:06.731)
So.
Dr. Judi (07:15.329)
in those memories or past experiences of trauma and negativity. And then that can then perpetuate or trigger very strong emotions and sitting in a cycle with bad behaviors, negative belief systems, and just even having like adverse body reactions to the emotional content.
So a therapist that's using EMDR will help a client to kind of very briefly go into a past trauma or difficult memory and then utilize what we call bilateral stimulation of the brain, which we're accessing both the right and left hemispheres of the brain. So we're getting into neuroscience here. The bilateral stimulation is done through guided, it's done in a couple different ways through EMDR, but one of the...
main ways is through guided eye movements, moving the eyes left to right with some sort of vessel to help track the eye movement. They also can do it through tapping, whether you're doing it with the, having the client tap on, you can't see my hands on my knees, but tapping left, right on their, on their knees, or even through sounds, they might have an audio version where they're stimulating the right and left hemispheres.
in doing that bilateral stimulation. So what happens is when the client actually briefly accesses that trauma or that memory in combination with the bilateral stimulation, the idea is that helps the brain to reprocess the memory so that it becomes less upsetting and more like just an average mundane normal memory from the past. So that's...
kind of a quick version of EMDR. It's extensive training for people to get certified in it, I will say.
Ryan Simpson (09:07.564)
Yeah, I was gonna say that sounds really technical but really powerful at the same time.
Dr. Judi (09:12.603)
Very much so, and that's been around for quite some time, definitely EMDR. So, and then the last one you asked about, Ryan, was the ART or accelerated resolution therapy. Again, I know, easier to say the acronym. Fine. That's perfect. So there's a lot of similarities of ART with EMDR.
Ryan Simpson (09:28.782)
Yeah, we can do ART for the rest of the conversation just for the of the length.
Ernie (09:31.913)
Thank Thank
Dr. Judi (09:40.477)
It also is used to help with trauma or high-level emotionality, anxiety, depression, chronic stress, OCD, debilitating lack of self-confidence, and so many more things. They've even been doing studies, excuse me, help with addiction too. The ART helps to lessen or improve people who are having addictive problems.
So as I described in EMDR, ART also uses that bilateral brain stimulation that helps to access both sides of the brain, again, going into the neurological stuff and reprocessing the memories or the emotion so that it loses the pain that's associated with the thought, the memory, the trauma.
The brain really does have the power to positively modify unwanted materials or memories just to recreate or retrain the brain to think or feel or act and remember in a different way. ART only uses the eye movement. So like EMDR, you can use the tapping or the sounds to access the bilateral stimulation.
But with ART, we only use the eye movements and the therapist will guide the client through left right eye movement. throughout the whole session, it is where we're also guiding as the ART therapist, we're guiding the client through a script that's designed specifically to help them work through and allow their brain to start doing the work.
to reprocess those memories and such as that. individual does not need to talk throughout the entire session. This is not a talk therapy based modality, but they're encouraged to like allow their brain just to do the work and allow their brain to show them what they need to be shown to help reprocess the images.
Dr. Judi (11:53.125)
So one of the, would say like I used a comparison between EMDR and ART, but one of the big differences is that ART can have like astounding relief and improvements with as little as one session and maybe even upwards of five sessions. So like it is, it is pretty intense and pretty quickly focused on helping to relieve or reprocess the trauma. And like one of the things that
The main trainers for ART always say that the motto is that we keep the memory, we just lose the pain associated with
Ryan Simpson (12:31.5)
Wow. So what is it about ART that allows it to be so fast?
Dr. Judi (12:34.246)
A lot.
Ernie (12:39.975)
So.
Dr. Judi (12:42.717)
It's just a way that in which the script is designed and kind of using some there are some metaphor that is kind of induced into the script to help the brain reprocess, refocus, rethink in a different way to take the traumatic feelings and thoughts away from it or the hard pain that we're talking about. But
I think, and this is done in a traditional one hour session in our office. I think it's just because of the time and the speed of the whole modality that we go through the script that allows the time for it to be so much quicker.
Ryan Simpson (13:25.974)
Okay, well I want to dive into that a little bit more. The comparison is fascinating. So Dr. Ernie, I'll send my next question over to you. What kind of issues or struggles, where would you use each of these modalities? Like are there maybe common paths for them? And then are they used for adults, children and teens? Like are each of them used for everybody?
Ernie (13:37.437)
Sure.
Ernie (13:54.363)
Great question. Yes. So they are all used for children, teenagers and adults, right? Especially older kids, right? Young children a lot of times will use play therapy as the primary modality with the young, real young kids, but older kids, teenagers and adults, you can use all three of these modalities.
As for what kind of issues they're used for, would say think of CBT as sort of like the go-to toolbox that the therapist sort of typically will have. It's maybe like a screwdriver or like a hammer or something like that. Real, general, very helpful tool. Every therapist is going to have that in their toolbox more than likely.
Highly effective modality for addressing a wide variety of issues including anxiety or anything that's required that has some dysfunctional thought patterns that impact behaviors, right? So if they have something like that where looping worries, looping anxiety, things of that sort, CBT is going to be great for that sort of stuff. Grief.
social anxiety, work, school, test issues, perfectionism, sleep troubles, OCD habits, anger, irritability, many, many other issues. So we could think of that as sort of a staple, gold standard screwdriver hammer type intervention. And then I would say EMDR and ART, accelerated resolution therapy, ART is
are more like we might call maybe like a socket set, right? Or a drill or maybe even a chisel, right? You know, it's super useful, right? But it's much more specific. It's very targeted. And maybe one of the differences with Judi was saying, I think she did a great job saying it, but ART is even more specific. It's even more very targeted to changing the mental images.
Ernie (16:02.918)
So that because it's so targeted and very specific, it's even faster than EMDR. EMDR is a little bit broader. ART is more targeted and specific. So that's some of the differences there. I would say for ART and EMDR, it's more for like the stuck memories, things that are trauma specific, certainly. They can be used for quite a variety as Dr. Judi was mentioning.
It's used quite a bit and they're finding more and more things that it's helpful for every day. probably things like accidents, assaults, medical scares, disasters, grief, anxiety, nightmares, flashbacks, memories that are from then but feel very much now. They're not occurring now, they're occurring then. But even some of the things that are regularly occurring in their life, we can also help to switch some of those things.
Dr. Judi (16:52.605)
Thank
Ernie (17:02.017)
I'll change those too as well. Let me give it like a quick example that may help illustrate a little bit. So I had a child come in just recently, had a choking incident. She had a choking incident and so having that choking incident was kind of very traumatic. So we started with CBT. So we started to address the distorted issues that, know, beliefs and such around it. Like I'm going to choke now all the time.
This she didn't actually choke but it but it felt like it was occurring so we could confront some of that We could look at the distortions Because she began avoiding food Right if you begin afford avoiding food, that's pretty you know, that's pretty you know, can't do that exactly, right? So all so we did some challenging restructuring cognitive restructuring we did some graded
Ryan Simpson (17:43.782)
wow.
Ryan Simpson (17:47.608)
Can't do that. Yeah.
Ernie (17:59.321)
gradual exposure right exposing a little bit more a little bit more that that piece and But she was really having some difficulty very connected very stuck in that trauma So so what we did in session three is we moved and we started doing a RT a RT to kind of release that Trauma bond right she had a bond a connection the the then is feeling like it's the now
Ryan Simpson (18:11.918)
Hmm.
Ryan Simpson (18:24.461)
Yeah.
Ernie (18:28.565)
So we want to release that bond and we did that through targeted ART intervention. So that kind of goes a little bit. I could have used EMDR as well. EMDR would have also been useful for that, but EMDR is a little bit more extensive, a little bit longer term, and ART is more targeted. So felt like that was the best intervention to utilize for that.
Ryan Simpson (18:54.606)
That makes sense. So I keep hearing you both say like stuck when somebody is maybe stuck in a memory. I'm just curious for somebody who is stuck, are they operating or do they get to fight or flight faster? Like are they kind of living in that spot? Is that a part of this at all?
Ernie (19:18.124)
Yeah, so that's being triggered, right? So the amygdala is firing, right? Something bad's going on, right? And the prefrontal cortex is going, this isn't good. Or it's not able to stop that firing. And so the heart starts beating, right? So they're going into. Now, there's quite a variety. So you can have someone who's got a lot of physiological. You can have someone who's just avoiding. And certainly, when we have stress, you go fight or flight.
Ryan Simpson (19:22.723)
Yeah.
Ernie (19:47.436)
Right? Or you can freeze. Right? Or sometimes people go into fawning, which fawning is just like, I'm going to please everyone, make every, every right. So everybody's okay so that I can be okay. But the main ones we talk about usually is fight, flight or freeze. Right? And so when someone's stuck, that's happening regularly. That, and what we usually mean by stuck is that memory is just coming back, right? They're still connected with that. It may be 20 years ago. It may be.
Ryan Simpson (19:49.142)
freeze yeah
Dr. Judi (19:49.255)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Simpson (19:59.202)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Simpson (20:16.035)
Yeah.
Ernie (20:17.099)
you know, three months ago, right? It could be 40 years, right? And someone is still returning to that and it's preventing them from living a full life. They're really having some dysfunction with it. Judi, you might have some additional thoughts on that.
Dr. Judi (20:32.509)
No, I think you said that beautifully and I yeah I was just gonna like repeat on the stuck thing is being stuck in that memory and stuck in that and Where the individual is functioning in many spaces of their lives But their mental state stays in that stuck hurt space or you know damaged space where the emotions are Just uprooted all the time. And so they're yeah, they're always stuck in those stages of fight
flight or freeze. Yeah.
Ryan Simpson (21:04.878)
Okay, so what the modalities offer is maybe some freedom. Some freedom from that memory. that's exciting. I can get excited about that. So my next question, I want go back to you, Dr. Judi. You started to dive into this a little bit. I want to hear more about it. I'm curious what an actual session with CBT looks like. What happens in that session? And then how does that compare to a session with EMDR or ART, since those are a little more similar.
Dr. Judi (21:10.065)
Yeah, exactly.
Ernie (21:11.047)
Yeah, definitely.
Dr. Judi (21:14.493)
you
Ernie (21:15.607)
Yes.
Dr. Judi (21:35.441)
Right. Okay. So like I was, as I described before, when I was defining and describing CBT, the connection between the thoughts, the feelings and the behaviors, being able to recognize those unhealthy irrational thought patterns and how they might then lead to the feelings and the behaviors. So it's like, as the therapist will help them to connect those ideas and help them to recognize how
a lot of times challenging the thoughts that are the irrational or unhealthy thought process. So CBT is very much a talk therapy based strategy. in those sessions, it is processing out loud with the, you know, between the client and the therapist. When a client addresses their areas of concern and then the therapist guides them and helps them to process them further.
learning strategies to identify and reframe their negative thought patterns. I think with CBT is also, it teaches new ways of thinking, teaches new ways of behaving once you've been able to understand and recognize the connection between the thoughts, the feelings and behaviors. So it kind of teaches new strategies, but it also helps to create new tools.
Ernie (22:34.467)
Definitely. .
Dr. Judi (22:56.669)
So I think one of the things that a CBT therapist, we all do it a little bit differently. think those of us that are, you know, utilize it on a regular basis, but in a session might actually use some things like worksheets and journaling, actually practicing coping skills in role play activities and things like that. So as I said before, it's talk therapy. So it's communication heavy based in that way. And it's kind of like a collaborative.
coaching experience, honestly, within the CBT session.
Ryan Simpson (23:27.33)
Okay.
Ryan Simpson (23:31.374)
That makes sense. yeah, and I hear a lot of that sounds like a lot of just like good mental health best practices as well in terms of journaling and thought patterns, but it would be nice to have a coach to walk you through, especially if that's your first time doing it with a specific target in mind. So that's great. What about EMDR and ART? What are those sessions like?
Ernie (23:31.535)
Yeah, good. Good.
Dr. Judi (23:46.013)
You
Dr. Judi (23:49.66)
Right.
Dr. Judi (23:53.371)
Right. And as we talked about, both of us said, you know, how the similarities between the two and not to keep repeating the same word, like to specifically focus in on the clients who have stuck memories that are usually from the clients past. One of the I'm going to go back to something to one of the differences with CBT is a lot of times focusing on the here and now and what those
thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are now, whereas both EMDR and ART is more focused on things that have happened already in the past and how they've created these heavy memories and heavy or stuck feelings or whatever you want to call it. So the EMDR and the ART, once again, they help with reprocessing those memories that are associated with the distress or the traumatic thoughts, feelings, events in their lives.
Ernie (24:45.922)
So, going continue to do this. So, going to continue to this. So, do this. So, do this. So, So, going this. going to So, going to going going going So, going So,
Dr. Judi (24:52.293)
and then it's helping them to move forward without the negative emotions and behaviors and everything attached to it. So in an EMDR session is much less verbal interactions between the therapist and the client. And I would say is compared to the CBT modality, which is heavily based in the communications. And then ART is even less than the EMDR.
as far as the communication and talk therapy, because that's mostly through a script and through a guide by the therapist. So ART focuses a lot on this, as we scripting those ideas. We use imagery, suggestions and metaphors and thoughts, cognitive thoughts to help the client to access those images from their brain, allowing their brains to do the work. And it's usually
As we've talked about, ART seems to be a lot quicker and faster results when it's effective for a client.
Ryan Simpson (25:59.766)
Okay, I wanted to...
Memories with negative emotions. So we are trying to lift the negativity, right? The negative emotions, the negative associations off of those memories. I'm just curious, are we replacing them with anything? Or like, we trying to turn them into positive feelings? Or are we just trying to almost mute their power in the here and now?
Dr. Judi (26:26.801)
That's actually a good way saying it. I think it's a little bit of that latter statement that you said, Ryan, kind of muting the power in a sense. We're not replacing thoughts. We're not replacing memories. We're not replacing anything. We're having them with the brain work and the bilateral stimulation is reprocessing to take the negative away from it, detach the negative from it so that it just becomes an everyday memory and everyday thoughts.
Ryan Simpson (26:29.112)
Okay.
Ryan Simpson (26:37.389)
Okay.
Ryan Simpson (26:55.342)
Got it. Okay. think I saw it. Great.
Ernie (26:56.475)
Yeah, Ryan, let me jump in real quick and give an analogy or, you know, a little metaphor with all.
If you have a scar on your body, like I have this little scar on my hand and sometimes I'll point to it when I'm working with kids especially, and I'll say, I remember when this got hurt. I remember exactly what happened and I remember it hurting, right? But it doesn't hurt anymore. That's what we're trying to get them to, right? For people who are stuck in that, it still hurts. This is still hurting. And so we're wanting to replace that so it's...
Ryan Simpson (27:20.47)
Hmm, okay.
Dr. Judi (27:27.098)
Mm-hmm.
Ernie (27:32.436)
They remember it hurt and they remember what happened but it doesn't hurt anymore. Does that make sense?
Ryan Simpson (27:38.252)
Got it. Yes. No, that makes perfect sense. It's a great analogy too. That's I think a super helpful way to think about what happens. Like it's almost, you know, pain-free scar tissue and there's something wrong with scar tissue. It's part of the healing process. Okay. All right. So for those who have joined us down the technical rabbit hole, Dr. Ernie and are really interested in these detailed aspects of therapy and are highly researched and know that
Ernie (27:50.708)
Right, right.
Dr. Judi (27:57.884)
Yeah.
Ryan Simpson (28:05.176)
Okay, I'm ready for some therapy, but I'm not sure which of these modalities are right for me. How would they know what to choose and what role does a counselor play in that process?
Ernie (28:18.578)
Yeah, great question. I would say the counselor plays a big part in that because the client, unless they come in and they've already done this type of work and they're coming in very specific and educated, they're not really going to know for sure what all this means or how it works or where it's best used, right? If I go into seeing my physician, I don't know every lab test or why it's used. If I just was given a lab sheet and I started checking things off,
I'm liable to check all the wrong things, right? I just don't know. I think, oh, that looks like it's probably something we should test for. And it's like, no, that's for people, you know, 95 years old or something, right? You know, it's not something I might, I'm a little old, but I'm not quite that old yet. So, so with this, the therapist is going to be a guide. It's going to be the educated, right? Know very specifically why these are used and how they're used. So the client doesn't have to have any pressure thinking.
Ryan Simpson (28:45.966)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Judi (28:46.237)
you
Dr. Judi (28:49.968)
You
Ernie (29:12.541)
I've got to figure all this out. There's no pressure at all. Frequently, a therapist may start with CBT. They may, right? That's a pretty common one that they may start with. Not all therapists are going to do that, but it really depends on the therapist, and it depends on the issues that they're coming in with, right? And are they requesting something specific? But there's no pressure for them to have figured that out. So the therapist may then move on to doing ART or EMDR, very specific to what the child, what the all...
with the client needs. So if the client comes in and has some trauma, very stuck, it's very clear that this is trauma related or this is stuck sort of stuff related, they may very quickly move to EMDR or ART. So for, I would say for cognitive behavioral, if you want to think about it, think that if you have looping or recurring worries, depression, negative self-talk, low motivation,
or habits you want to change, and especially if you want to do a lot more talk, right? Talk therapy type pieces. And then CBT is going to probably be your go-to. And then you may move on to ART or EMDR if you have flashbacks or nightmares or disturbing images or a memory that feels like it's happening now, even though it really is happening then, right? A long time ago.
EMDR, maybe you could think of it as refiling the memory from now to then, right? Accelerated resolution therapy, you might think of it as editing the mental movie, the mental image, right? And then shifting, keeping the facts but removing the sting, maybe as a way of thinking about that. It often has fewer sessions. I think Dr. Judi mentioned that it has fewer sessions typically than EMDR.
Ryan Simpson (30:49.102)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Simpson (30:55.342)
Got it.
Ernie (31:03.336)
So it really depends on what the client is looking for, what their specific issues are. And then I would say the therapist is going to really be the guide. And so they don't have to have any pressure to figure out what's going to be the best intervention. The therapist is going to talk through all that with them. So it's not like the therapist is going to Right. It's made collaboratively. you know, just like your physician is probably going to talk, I think we should probably do this. And you'd say, I'm not interested in that. Or that you'd say, certainly that sounds great.
Ryan Simpson (31:17.622)
Yeah, that's a decision that gets made together. Okay.
Ryan Simpson (31:31.736)
got it so it's good to have some of this knowledge but it's not necessary for somebody who's looking to maybe just get some help okay alright hopefully that's a helpful that would be helpful for me if I was stressing myself out doing a bunch of research which I've been known to do great well speaking of the research I'm I have a suspicion and just you know in talking amongst my peers and friends in the last few years
Ernie (31:33.16)
Yeah.
Correct. Correct, yes.
Dr. Judi (31:47.111)
Yeah.
Ernie (31:47.58)
Yeah, no stress. Yeah, no stress needed, right? Yes.
Ryan Simpson (32:00.77)
I think terms like CBT or EMDR would not be part of our normal language 20 years ago, but I actually hear these terms in everyday conversations with my friends a lot more often than I used to even five years ago. Might have something to do with COVID. And so I'm wondering if maybe there are some myths or misconceptions that you've seen clients coming in with about these modalities. So Dr. Judi, I'll let you start on this one.
Dr. Judi (32:22.525)
.
Dr. Judi (32:31.101)
Okay, that's funny. Yeah, the internet does a number on us and I think you know like I had mentioned before clients will often come in and request a certain type of therapy, but they don't really know what they're requesting or if it's fit it's suitable for what their issues or concerns are so one of the things that I kind of chuckle about this sometimes is one of the myths is ART and EMDR are not hypnotism. We are not
Ryan Simpson (32:35.662)
You
Dr. Judi (33:01.041)
hypnotizing you, we are not making you bark like a dog, quack like a duck, or whatever it is. We are not hypnotizing you. there's strategies that we're using to activate the brain through the reprocessing of the memories, but we're not implanting new ones, which is what hypnotism kind of does when you bark like a dog or, know, cluck like a duck or whatever.
Ernie (33:29.805)
Right.
Dr. Judi (33:31.149)
So that's one of the myths that I've heard. And I think I even remember hearing when I had gotten trained for ART, even the trainers were saying that we're often going to get told what kind of sorcery is this? And this is not black magic. It's not sorcery. It's not hypnotism. I know. We're not pulling out Harry Potter wands or anything and anything like we're really just using neuroscience.
Ernie (33:45.821)
.
Ernie (33:51.013)
Hmm.
Right.
Ernie (34:00.197)
I do have my Harry Potter books here, but yeah.
Dr. Judi (34:01.469)
That's why I made the reference. You know, we're just using neuroscience to help like retrain the brain and reprocess those traumatic memories and stuff like that.
Ryan Simpson (34:15.054)
Okay, that's helpful, because I have heard of hypnotherapy, and I've heard people talking about it, so I think it's helpful to know that this is different. This is not a version even of that. This is a totally different topic.
Dr. Judi (34:24.657)
Great, great. Yeah.
Ernie (34:27.303)
Yeah, there is hypnotherapy. That's a legitimate type of therapy out there, right? This is just not that. It's just something very different.
Ryan Simpson (34:33.09)
Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Judi (34:35.249)
Yeah. And I would say another myth, and I think you might have said it earlier, Ryan, I'm not sure. was just the one that came to mind was that we don't erase memories. We're not eliminating things with EMDR or ART. We're just kind of easing the pain that's associated with those memories, keeping the facts. That's what the goal is of both EMDR and ART is keep the facts, because that's a part of a person's life.
That's part of a person's past. And there's a reason why those facts are important to maintain inside the person's mind or memory bank. But we're just losing the pain or losing the negative association and getting the client out of that fight, flight, freeze, fawn, you know, all of those F's, you know, basically. So.
Ryan Simpson (35:25.048)
Yeah. Okay, that makes sense.
Ernie (35:25.598)
Right. Yeah, if I throw in a couple other ones, yeah, if I throw in a couple other ones, Ryan, I'll.
One would be like what CPT sometimes people think that because we're looking to change some thought processes and usually try to make them more accurate and kinder and so sometimes people think it's just like positive thinking. We're just you know trying to give them something positive to say. What we're actually looking to do is have accurate thinking right accurate and kind right. Most people are very unkind to themselves stuff that they say to themselves in their own head.
is so cruel, they would never say it to another person. And it's oftentimes so distorted in how they're thinking about things and they're so stuck in thinking this way. So it really isn't about replacing that just with positivity. Positive is great, but it's replacing it with accurate, fairer, more precise, clearer type thinking. So that's one minute. Yeah.
Ryan Simpson (36:26.798)
That's a good one. That's a good one. I imagine there's probably a lot of cynicism surrounding maybe CBT in that myth where, you know, you're just gonna lie to yourself with some positive thoughts. That's not what's happening.
Dr. Judi (36:36.829)
Thank
Ernie (36:39.062)
Right. And somehow, yeah, like somehow it's better to be, you know, terrible to yourself, right? You know, like that's how you're tough or something if you say terrible things to yourself or you're weak if you say kind things to yourself. We're just looking to be accurate and fair and kind and decent, right? Like you would be to a good friend. If you can't treat yourself like a good friend, let's try to shift that and maybe change that.
Ryan Simpson (37:06.284)
Yeah, yeah. lot of my internal thoughts are fighting words.
Ernie (37:08.805)
So another one, right, exactly, exactly. So many people it is, right? It really is. Another myth I would say that's out there is that there's one best therapy for everyone. There's so many different therapies and a good therapist has a lot of tools in their toolbox and you're looking to try to find the right fit for the right client for the issues that it works best with.
Dr. Judi (37:12.185)
you
Ryan Simpson (37:12.92)
Okay. Yeah.
Dr. Judi (37:29.351)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Judi (37:37.661)
Okay.
Ernie (37:38.095)
So that would be a myth that sometimes people come in with. Or another one would be that you have to pick perfectly the first day. You'd have to pick like, I have to know exactly what I need. Like we were kind of talking about before. There's no pressure to know that. You don't even have to know what therapy is. Just come in and ready to, you you want to make your life better and begin working out things. It's great to be educated. That's wonderful. That's awesome. But you don't have to. You don't have to know all that.
Dr. Judi (37:56.803)
Alright.
Ernie (38:08.079)
There is not one perfect intervention and they don't certainly have to pick the perfect one on day one. There's going to be collaboration and looking at what fits best with what you need.
Ryan Simpson (38:15.534)
Got it.
Ryan Simpson (38:19.862)
Okay, that's a decent segue actually in my next question. Dr. Judi, could you maybe just talk us through what somebody should expect in their first session when they're starting one of these therapies with you guys at the counseling corner?
Dr. Judi (38:19.965)
for me.
Dr. Judi (38:34.267)
Yeah, I often get people so anxious, nervous, worried, uncomfortable, whatever you want to name it. Like when they first come in because they don't know what to expect, they don't know what they're what they need to be doing or what they should say. So like leave it to us as the trained professionals.
That first visit is actually essential and very important both to the therapeutic relationship, but also kind of to help us. We gather a full assessment through an interview process, kind of understanding more about what their problem areas, their history, like the path in life that they're choosing, with so many more things that we look at in great detail. So when a client, if a
like I had said before, client's coming in requesting a specific form of therapy, because they read about it, they heard it on the internet, they heard it on TikTok, something, that, you know, that full assessment is going to help us to have ethical and critical recommendations for what type of therapy might actually be best for this client.
And the other thing is, is like, we might be using a combination of all the therapies, like Dr. Ernie said earlier, like you might start with one and pivot to the next and pivot to the next. It's our job and it's up to us to help guide you guys as the clients to figure out what's the best path for you and help show that to you. So when they, you know, when they first come in, go educate them on what the options are.
outline everything that's available, explain to them what it might look like, what are the different modalities, what are the processes involved for CBT, EMDR, ART, and any of the other alphabet soup of therapeutic modalities. And then together, it's the responsibility of the therapist to do it with the client to actually together in that collaborative way, decide which is the best course of action to take, or maybe to try all.
Dr. Judi (40:48.317)
to be honest with you. like, you know, using the combination can often be the most highly effective form of treatment.
Ryan Simpson (40:56.738)
Okay, great. All right, that's helpful. Thank you. So I always like to end our conversations with maybe a story of hope or on a positive note, because some of the conversations can be heavier. So Dr. Judi, I'm hoping that you can share a story. Obviously, we have to modify details and such to honor our confidentiality agreements. But if you can share a story about how one of these therapies helped a client of yours, I think that would be really beneficial for us to hear.
Ernie (41:15.765)
Definitely. Thank
Dr. Judi (41:16.701)
certain.
Dr. Judi (41:24.677)
Right. Thank you. I do. I use a lot of CBT. I love using ART. It's for many reasons. For the fast, effective, you know, way that it can see changes and benefit the client. So I can think of a client that I had worked with not that long ago. I think several maybe several months ago or the end of last year. Losing track of my time. But like.
When I actually I had done two different ART sessions with her for two different issues. One of them was a chronic way of negative thinking and anxious thinking. And another was a specific traumatic event that had happened in her past. And after. Like, I get the chills when I think about this, when I see the physical changes in the person as the session progresses.
As I'm walking them through and doing the script, you can see with great intent on her face of the concentration and the focus and even going through and processing on her own the emotions. Tears are flowing down her eyes because of how much she was remembering and feeling in the moment. But as we went through the whole script and the whole process with the bilateral stimulation, reprocessing them and taking away that pain.
So I just saw, I literally saw weight lifted off of her. I can't even describe like how amazing it felt to watch this. But I remember at the end of the last session, the second session that I had done with her, she had basically described that same thing. She goes, I feel so light. I feel like I could float out of this office and over to my car right now.
Ernie (43:20.596)
Wow.
Dr. Judi (43:20.645)
So the weight of the trauma, the weight of those heavy emotional feelings that she continued to chronically relive and re-feel, just gone.
Ryan Simpson (43:33.197)
Wow.
I mean, that's yeah, I'm in. I'm going to schedule my session. That great. Yeah.
Ernie (43:36.824)
Mm
Dr. Judi (43:38.397)
It's powerful.
Ryan Simpson (43:44.302)
Doctor, do you have any stories or just reflections on the overall approaches that you'd like to share to wrap up?
Ernie (43:51.766)
Yeah, mean, Judi gave a great example, Dr. Judi Hall. That was awesome. I would say, you know, in the 30 years or three decades that I've been doing this just to get to walk alongside, it's an honor to get to walk alongside clients and see them heal, whether it's CBT or it's EMDR or it's ART, right, utilizing effective evidence-based strategies just to really help people find healing and freedom and move past and
achieve the goals that they're trying to get. know, CBT helps teens, you know, and adults spot distorted thoughts and patterns, replace them with fair, accurate, healthier ones, right? And EMDR and ART helps people move from then to now, right? And help those memories, right, get more accurate, right, where it's not occurring now.
Dr. Judi (44:40.573)
Thank
Ernie (44:46.965)
Right there. Now they have healing. This scar doesn't hurt anymore. I'm moving from that. And best of all, I'd say that these approaches work so well together, right? And there several other ones that work really well. We can add them in and help clients with them. You know, they're all great tools in the toolbox. CBT builds daily coping, problem solving, clearer thinking, and momentum EMDR and ART.
get rid of the big spikes, the fears, the trauma, but it's all hope made practical. With simple steps, clear targets, measurable progress, moving from I'm stuck like this to I'm free and I'm moving forward. like Judi says, sometimes clients are almost like skipping out of the office. They just feel so good. I mean, don't want to make it sound goofy.
Dr. Judi (45:40.509)
Yes!
Ernie (45:44.449)
But people just, it feels so good when you've lived with something for years just weighing on you and then you've got freedom from it. You start to move past it. Many times it's gradual and someone's moving slowly past things. But sometimes it's just really all of a sudden a real powerful shift occurs. And to be able to be part of that, it's just such an honor. Dr. Judi and I all take that serious and we really all.
It's really honorable to be part of that. It's just great.
Dr. Judi (46:20.349)
I'm sorry. I was just saying, I think we are very blessed as therapists to be like you said, Dr. Ernie, like walking this pathway with someone and helping them to find peace and happy and joy and just solitude in their lives. And we're blessed to be able to be a part of people's lives like this.
Ernie (46:40.63)
Most definitely.
Ryan Simpson (46:40.76)
I love that. Well, real quick for our listeners, if this has piqued your curiosity and you want to learn more about any of approaches, CBT, EMDR, ART, or the others that we can do at the Counseling Corner, feel free to visit our website, counselingcorner.net. We'll have the show notes from this episode there. But we also have a blog and a lot of resources specifically for these issues and these modalities. So you can read more. If you
are ready to maybe start getting after something with our team using one of these modalities, feel free to use the same URL, counselingcorner.net. You can book a session with us at our offices in Orlando, Clermont, or Orange City. with that, I think we'll wrap it up. So thanks for joining us on Real Life Counseling, a podcast by the Counseling Corner. If today's conversation helped you understand these therapy approaches better, please share it.
with somebody, especially somebody who you think might be considering counseling or somebody you think could benefit from one of these approaches, who you'd love to see skipping around life. think that'd be great. For more resources or to connect with our team, the URL is counselingcorner.net or you can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, or now YouTube. So until next time, take care of yourself and the people you love. Dr. Judi, Dr. Ernie, thank you so much for your time. Have a good weekend.
Ernie (48:02.701)
Thank you, Ryan. Good seeing you. Bye-bye.
Dr. Judi (48:03.911)
Thank you. Bye.
Ryan Simpson (48:04.972)
Alright, talk to you soon.