Fresh Perspectives on Marriage and Couples Counseling — From the Interns at Counseling Corner
Show Notes:
In this episode of Real Life Counseling, hosts Ryan Simpson and Dr. Ernie Reilly, LCSW engage with a group of counseling interns from the University of Central Florida. They discuss their journeys into the field of counseling, the dynamics of conflict in relationships, and the importance of communication and intimacy. The conversation delves into common reasons couples seek counseling, the role of psychoeducation, and the significance of understanding attachment theory. The interns share insights on forgiveness, debunk myths about relationships, and emphasize the ongoing work required to maintain healthy partnerships. This episode highlights the fresh perspectives of the next generation of therapists and their commitment to helping others navigate life's challenges.
Takeaways
Conflict is often a bid for connection, revealing unmet needs.
Forgiveness is empowering, not a sign of weakness.
Intimacy encompasses emotional, relational, and physical aspects.
Communication is the primary reason couples seek counseling.
Psychoeducation helps normalize experiences and foster understanding.
Attachment theory provides a framework for understanding relationships.
Resentment can be detrimental to relationships and must be addressed.
Forgiveness is a process that requires patience and accountability.
Healthy relationships require ongoing effort and growth.
Social media can create unrealistic expectations for relationships.
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Transcript:
Ryan Simpson (08:36.709)
Welcome to Real Life Counseling, a podcast by the Counseling Corner. I'm Ryan and I'm here with Dr. Ernie, licensed clinical social worker and founder of the Counseling Corner. Today's episode is a little bit different. Not only are we hearing from Dr. Ernie, but we are also excited to be hearing from the next generation of therapists. Our Counseling Corner interns are joining us to share what they're learning about marriage and couples counseling, relationships and what helps people grow closer. These are fresh perspectives from people preparing to help others through some of life's most important conversations.
Let's get right in. I want to go around real quick. Tell us your name, what you're studying, what university you're studying at, how far along you are in your program, and why you decided counseling was for you. I'd love to start with Ale, if that's okay.
Alejandra Rios (09:23.716)
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Ale Alejandra. I am currently in my third year in the master's program for clinical mental health counseling at the University of Central Florida. I'm also in my final semester of clinical rotations. So I'm currently interning at Orlando Health with the team member assistance program and I've absolutely loved my internship there. And what mainly got me in to studying counseling in general, I've always been fascinated I think with
psychology and like what makes people tick and I think growing up in Florida, I find Florida very diverse across the entire state and I have a huge heart for so many marginalized communities where marginalized identities and intersectional identities have been experiencing a lot of pain I feel over a long time but especially in recent years and I feel that I want to be
representation for a lot of those identities, but also I think that all individuals, regardless of their background, deserve a space to feel seen, heard, and valued and empowered and embracing their authenticity. So that was my reason I got into the program and I found that that's only gotten stronger over the years. So I'm very excited to graduate now in December and keep advocating for the communities as needed.
Ryan Simpson (10:49.383)
Congratulations in advance. That's exciting.
Ernie Reilly (10:50.971)
Yeah.
Ryan Simpson (10:55.133)
All right, Sophia, you're next on my screen. So I'm just gonna have you go next.
Sophia Thonis (11:00.92)
Hi, I'm Sophia. I'm currently at UCF as well, but I'm in my senior year of my undergraduate degree. I'm studying psychology and early childhood development. And I'm currently an intern at the counseling corner, and that's just growing my love of counseling every single day. My interest really lies in the impact of childhood experiences on adult behaviors. I think once I started examining my own childhood, talking to people around me, realized just how much every little thing you carry with you your entire life.
A lot of adult issues stem from how our inner child was hurt. So I really want to work with children, adolescents, teens in my future career. And I'm really excited to talk to you all today.
Ryan Simpson (11:40.605)
Brilliant, thank you. All right Noel, bring us home.
Ernie Reilly (11:41.478)
Awesome.
Noel Sondermann (11:46.539)
Hi everybody, my name is Noel. I am currently a student at the University of Central Florida. I am in the clinical mental health program there, also going for my master's, so the same program as Ale. However, I'm halfway through the program, so I just started practicum, just started seeing patients, so really getting a taste for the field and kind of what counseling has to bring me. So I really got into the field because I've always wanted to do a helping profession.
I actually started at UCF as a biomedical sciences major. So I was going to be a doctor. That's what I thought. But I realized that my love was really for psychology and I really decided to do counseling after being an intern at the counseling corner as well. It kind of showed me the ins and outs of what a counselor does every day. And so it really pushed me into that path. But now that I'm in practicum, I have learned that I love to work with children. I love to work with adolescents. That's like really kind of...
My target's been narrowed down a bit. So yeah, that's kind of what that means in the field.
Ryan Simpson (12:50.141)
Beautiful. That's part of the point,
Ernie Reilly (12:50.862)
Super exciting.
Ryan Simpson (12:53.807)
Okay, well, let's jump right into my first question. I'm excited to hear from you all on this. I just want to know what's one thing you've learned about conflict in couples that made you rethink relationships or specifically how partners argue. Anybody can jump in first.
Noel Sondermann (12:54.014)
Yeah, exactly.
Alejandra Rios (13:16.998)
I had a thought on that. Sophia had mentioned what happens in childhood and how much that impacts who we are as adults. And I think this internship that I'm currently at was the first time I started working with couples, both heterosexual and other forms of couples with different partnerships. And it has expanded how I view conflict in relationships, mainly because I'm realizing how much of what happens to us in childhood extends into adulthood.
and even adolescence, young adulthood, past relationships, and I think there's something my supervisor at my site says where conflict is a bid for connection and I've reframed so much of what I see as arguments, fighting, conflict. It's all an attempt to kind of navigate attachment woos from any point in our life and feel connected to another person, whether the conflict is just gentle irritation.
or let's see, like anger, sadness, loneliness, there's some unmet need underneath that is aching to be heard. So I think validating that has been something that surprised me in what I expected couples work to be versus what it ended up becoming.
Noel Sondermann (14:44.807)
I definitely agree with Allie in that and I've had the privilege to work with couples in practicum already so I've already started to kind of like learn a little bit about the dynamics of conflict and like what really stems from it and from what I've learned so far another huge thing is that misinterpretation happens all of the time and you can be like an active listening partner and like trying to listen to what your partner is saying but that doesn't mean you heard them. It doesn't mean that you know
what they were trying to get across with that message. So I think like taking a moment to like reflect with the partner and be like, okay, this is what I heard you say to me, has really been like an interesting thing that my couple has actually been working on. So yeah, that was something that helped me kind of reframe conflict.
Sophia Thonis (15:32.067)
Going off of the breakdown of communication, in a lot of my early childhood classes, I've learned about brain states and how that can really destroy communication between a couple. So I don't know if any of have heard about flipping your lid, but if my hand is the brain, this is your limbic system, and then this is your prefrontal cortex, which is all the higher order thinking, let's say a partner comes home from work and they're super stressed out, their lid is flipped, they're in the emotional part of their brain, and then their partner's trying to attack them with logic, like, okay, here's what you need to do, this is a plan, da-da-da-da.
connection is not gonna happen. They're in two completely different states of mind. So like you said, Noel, like you need to calm down, take a beat, reflect, so you both can be at the same point. I think that's helped me like, reconceptualize conflict entirely. Like people need to be on the same page first and foremost, mentally, physically, biologically.
Ernie Reilly (16:22.078)
Most definitely, most definitely. One of the thoughts is, we teach couples all the time, is to engage with the idea of help me understand. If you can engage with help me understand...
You're on the same page, I want to understand. I want to hear you. We're on the same team. may not be on the same page. Sorry, I misspoke. But we're on the same team trying to get on the same page. I want to understand. We're on the same team. It's you and me against the problem. It's not you and me against each other. And when you have that mindset, then conflict is just basically a doorway to growth, right? As Ali was saying, it's just an avenue.
to So if we can connect...
Right? And figure out, where's the breakdown? Because we're all just trying to grow, right? When Sophia was talking about how she loved the childhood stuff and then seeing how it manifests in adulthood, I see that so much. A childhood issue, a teen issue, adult issue, older adult issue, it's typically the same stuff. It's just a different manifestation. It's just showing up a different way. And so that's what I love doing across the lifespan.
because you just get to see it, you know, it's the same thing. It's just a cool, different version of it that you're getting to work on. And when couples are coming together, that's just an extra layer of complexity that, you know, you've got two people and you're trying to teach them, right, how do we do this? And looking at their patterns and how that impacts things. Because then you've got each, this childhood and this adolescence and this adulthood and this childhood, this adolescence and this adulthood all coming together in this couple. It's pretty neat.
Ernie Reilly (18:10.106)
to get to slow that down, look at the patterns and help them just connect in ways. And when they're willing to do that, conflict is not anything we need to be scared of. We just need to learn to do it well. It's like gymnasts or skateboarders or stuff. If they learn how to fall well, they can do anything. Right? They just, whoop, we fall, they bounce right back up. I've got a son who's a gymnast. I've got one who's a wrestler. They fall, they're right back up in like a half a second.
We just teach couples to do the same thing, which is teaching resiliency and how to bounce back.
Ernie Reilly (18:50.02)
I can't hear Ryan.
Ryan Simpson (19:00.317)
Can you hear me now?
Ernie Reilly (19:02.874)
Yes, now we can hear you,
Ryan Simpson (19:04.303)
Excellent. Okay, I'm put a beat in.
Ryan Simpson (19:09.565)
I feel like that's probably one of the most important things that a couple can be able to do in order to be healthy is figure out how to bounce back and not see conflict as You know a death knell or we're not supposed to argue right reframing our positioning of Conflict as growth I think is really strong so we could end the podcast now and be totally fine, but there's a lot more to talk about so let's do it from
What you've observed, ladies, learned so far, what are the most common reasons couples are seeking counseling today?
Noel Sondermann (19:48.88)
Communication. Communication is why couples are seeking counseling. At least from my experience in practical, I've just, my couple came in seeking just guidance with communication, how to communicate helpfully, how to like navigate arguments in a positive way. And kind of like what we talked about, not be scared of that conflict, be able to kind of go into it together and being on a team, kind of like what Dr. Reilly said. So communication is definitely the big one.
Ryan Simpson (19:50.247)
Okay.
Noel Sondermann (20:17.807)
I would say.
Sophia Thonis (20:21.292)
I think one of the misconceptions I've had is that couples counseling is just like the therapist is there to mediate the argument. But from what I've heard from a lot of the counselors at the counseling corner, they're not here to play referee. It's about like a bunch of little things are adding up and we need to target that, not we're coming to counseling to fight.
Ernie Reilly (20:41.702)
Yeah, that's definitely true.
Alejandra Rios (20:46.094)
I've also seen a lot of times, even if they'll tell me that the main reason for coming in is communication or like help us get closer together, like the underlying thing under that is their intimacy. And a lot of times I'll hear them use the word intimacy in regards to physical and sexual intimacy, but they sometimes neglect that emotional intimacy, relational intimacy, and their friendship. Because at the core of every relationship, there has to be some level of, actually really like
this person and I want to spend time with them. So not just that romantic relational aspect, the platonic relational aspect. So I've noticed that intimacy sometimes becomes a point of miscommunication or a point of conflict. And so sometimes the homework that I send my couples is you guys need to date more. You need to go out more, just the two of you, or leave your kid at home. Like it's okay to have an identity based
in work and in family and in all these dynamics we have but don't neglect the core of the relationship which for most couples it's the two partners.
Ryan Simpson (21:58.888)
Dr. Ernie, have you seen something similar? Is that what you see a lot, is the intimacy needs to grow in order for lot of the other things to maybe fall into place?
Ernie Reilly (21:58.928)
Yeah.
Ernie Reilly (22:08.43)
Yeah, let me comment a little bit on that and also something Noel said. So with intimacy, I love to do, it's a little bit cheesy, but I love to just say, into me see, right? Intimacy as in into me see, like you're seeing into the person, right? You're connecting with them and the closer you see into them, right? And sexually that's doing that, you know, through the sexual connection. But then there's all sorts of other ways to see in to the person and have them see into you.
Right, that intimacy is such an important piece. Noel mentioned communication, I think, or it might have been Sophia, but I think it was Noel said communication, communication, communication. And that is such a vital piece, right? Oftentimes though there's two pieces of communication. There's, hey, we don't know how to communicate. We're just missing each other. And then...
I don't like what you're saying and you don't like what I'm saying. Right? So that's a little bit different of a communication thing as well. And sometimes it's also what we were talking about before with that childhood stuff. Sometimes it can be patterns like the pursuer, distancer pattern that we see a cycle. So typically the pursuer is I'm going to pursue you. need to connect. I need to get us connected in order for us to heal and be, you know, better.
as a couple and the other person is distancing because they're trying to protect it from getting ruined right they're trying to protect it from going bad so I distance so that doesn't go bad because the last five times it wasn't really bad right or in my childhood when people you know got connected it went badly right so I distance I pursue right because in my childhood right there that's how we did it or
we didn't do it and we need to do that so badly. So you have some of those patterns coming up and there's all sorts of patterns that can, know, the demand defend pattern, right? The parent-child dynamic you can have even in a relationship where one person is like over performing and one person's under performing. The avoidance, accommodation pattern is all sorts of things. A roommate, right? You know, some people become more like
Ernie Reilly (24:28.806)
like roommates, though they've been married, you know, they've been married 25 years, but you would think they're just, they're two roommates just doing separate things in their life. There's all sorts of patterns that we're going to want to dissect. What we typically do is try to slow things down. Sort of breathe, right? Let's slow them down. And I think it might've been Sophia that mentioned about the, yeah, think Sophia mentioned about, we're not here to just referee a fight. We're not coming in for that. We're coming in to connect.
Slow it down, see the pattern. Both people want this to work typically. And if you've got two people who are willing, there is a way. We just gotta figure out where it's going wrong, right? And start to see, and where it's going right, and then build off of those.
Ryan Simpson (25:14.597)
So as you all have waded into these waters, right, with couples and gotten in, we're not refereeing, right? We're helping them to connect. What is one thing you've learned during the training that you feel like every couple should know, but maybe they don't?
Alejandra Rios (25:32.987)
Something that comes to mind for me is the presence of trauma in a relationship. I think that we talked a bit earlier about this like attachment and intimacy and inner child, what happens in childhood extends. I think that the presence of trauma or adverse childhood experiences or anything that's an atypical experience that causes some level of disturbance that's outside your ability to tolerate that disturbance.
I think has a way of shrinking our ability to tolerate distress and I think that awareness of it, I've noticed I've used a lot of psychoeducation on normalizing that you are not your trauma. You are not the mistakes that you make. You are not unworthy. I think a lot of couples I've noticed come in have a very negative focus perspective or weakness based perspective and I spend a lot of time kind of
Psycho-educating or validating that it's okay. Like that's so human of you and What has happened to you is not who you are and there's always hope you can always grow you can always learn and You can get help like you're coming in for counseling for couples counseling Like you took that first step the stigma of you only come to couples counseling when something is wrong No, like you can come in to always just grow as a person grow as
relationship, grow as a partnership, whatever that looks like, there's always hope. And I think that that's one of the main things I've learned is how to reframe that perspective to be a little bit more compassionate, understanding, and patient.
Ryan Simpson (27:18.747)
You've said psychoeducate a few times now. Can you just define that for me?
Alejandra Rios (27:24.164)
Yes, in simple layman's terms, just talking about things, educating them. The psycho part is more including that psychology background that I have from my undergrad as well. Sophia talked about like flipping your lid. I think of that a lot of times with a window of tolerance. So I've Googled that probably a million times to explain that to clients and teach them. So a lot of psycho education is explaining and teaching and normalizing and kind of bringing therapy talk to normal.
people words.
Ryan Simpson (27:55.934)
Got it. Okay. So it's almost helping people understand how their minds are working within a session. Okay. I'm curious, do you find, the rest of the group, do you find that happening a lot within your conversations too? There's a decent amount of psychoeducation going on?
Sophia Thonis (28:12.578)
I kind of wanted to speak about psychoeducation because I think in this digital age we're in, pop psychology terms have like infiltrated everyone's mind, people who don't have like psychology training. So one thing that I wrote down for what I think couples should know, you should not base your relationship off of anyone you are seeing online. Something people are talking about is attachment styles, like words of affirmation, gift giving. And I think that can create pressure for people to say like,
my gosh, my partner doesn't have the same love language as me. Like this is never going to work. That's just not true. You don't need to change your partner to fit the mole that you're seeing. Like, I like this couple on TikTok. My relationship should be like this. If it's not, it's a failure. I think more people need to realize people opposites can attract. People can be different and still work in a relationship. Everything does not need to be perfect to be a healthy partnership.
Ryan Simpson (29:09.501)
Okay, that's I think that's probably really helpful, but can you define pop psychology for me?
Ernie Reilly (29:10.15)
them.
Ernie Reilly (29:18.758)
Thank
Sophia Thonis (29:19.414)
I can't say that I have a perfect definition for it, but from my understanding, it's just when real psychological scientific terms have kind of been co-opted by the general cultural zeitgeist and kind of twisted into being different from what it actually means.
Ryan Simpson (29:21.425)
Okay.
Ryan Simpson (29:32.754)
Got it.
Okay, so people who know enough to know, but not enough that they don't know what they don't know. So they're gonna go and, okay, got it. As if that made anything any clearer than what I just said. Fantastic. right, Noel, take it away. What do you think every couple should know, don't?
Noel Sondermann (29:38.999)
you
Sophia Thonis (29:42.572)
Exactly.
Sophia Thonis (29:47.598)
If anyone else has a better definition, please do so in the comments.
Noel Sondermann (29:57.503)
I actually wanted to comment on the psycho education and as a brand new counselor, think you go into it thinking, yeah, I need to teach my client this, this, this, and this, and this, and this, and give them all this homework. And that kind of thing is kind of your thought process of let me push CBT on this client or let me push something to make it stick. But I would say that it really isn't all about
psychoeducation, it's a lot more about forming that connection with the client. And I think as a new counselor, kind of just taking that slow and not jumping into a huge theory-based homework assignment bunch of psychoeducation all at once, to get a little bit slow. But to kind of go into the question before, I wanted to of piggyback off of Ale because
I think that she's really right in that adverse childhood experiences or trauma can really show up in a relationship and I think it really impacts trust in a relationship. trust is a huge foundation of every romantic relationship, every couple, and even in friendships, how you interact with your family, all of it. And so I think...
Definitely kind of exploring your own relationship with trust and especially in your romantic relationship. And you can build trust with a partner by saying what, by doing what you're saying you're going to do. So like if you say you're gonna do one thing and then you don't do that thing, that breaks the trust in the relationship. So like just like little actions like that can really feed into trust over time.
Ryan Simpson (31:42.782)
Mmm, it's the little things The little things end up adding up quite a bit. Okay, you have all mentioned I think everybody has mentioned attachment theory or at least the word attachment a few times So far, so I think it'd be helpful Could somebody define attachment theory and then because I did a little bit of research myself. I googled it I'm now one of those pop psychologists. So could somebody define it for me and then tell me how
Noel Sondermann (31:45.265)
It is the little thing.
Ernie Reilly (32:07.278)
Yeah.
Ryan Simpson (32:11.215)
how you learning about has impacted your relationships how do you apply it yourselves in a healthy way within your lives
Ernie Reilly (32:24.25)
Yeah, so I can go ahead and jump in if you want and maybe the students can all jump in and add in too. So I think of attachment theory as sort of like a user manual for understanding relationships and love. So it helps give some insights into how do we attach. So children attach, adults bond with their children. And so that attachment, how we
attached as a kid can sort of lay the groundwork for how we do that in life. So there's different ways that some people attach and it's very anxious attachment or avoidant or disorganized attachment. So we were looking at how these attachment things went right and how they went wrong and then how these people are connecting because when two people are connecting they're bonding, they're attaching to each other. So attachment theory is just one useful thing to look at.
You know as Sophia was saying you want to be careful with dr. Tick-tock right, you know or doc dr GPT see, know all is telling you stuff just because you watch some sort of video or something like that You want to be careful because they're they're throwing around a lot of terms that you might not quite you're just getting like a lot of these content creators They don't even know at all what they're talking about. They just did a Google thing and they're good at presenting
So they're good at making a cool looking video, but their material isn't always the best. And certainly a big piece, even if the material is good, is finding how that fits. There's all sorts of good things. You could go into a health food store and you could see all this healthy stuff.
But it might not be healthy for you. That might not be the thing that you need. What you're deficient in this, and here you are overdosing sort of on this, right? You're taking way too much of this and not enough of this, so you could get it wrong. So attachment theory is just a useful one window, one lens, one user manual to use to connect.
Sophia Thonis (34:30.754)
The way I've learned about attachment theory is that kids use their caregiver or parental figure as a safe base. So if they don't have that safe base, they can't go out and explore the world and learn how to be a person. And that directly relates to how we form relationships later. If we don't have a safe base to build our own safe base and like self-regulate.
we're not gonna be able to do that with our partners. And something really cool that I learned about attachment theory and relationships is depending on your attachment style, it differentiates of what information you seek about your partner. So avoidant people tend not to want to learn much about their partner because they wanna maintain that emotional independence. That's what's kept them safe in childhood because they didn't have a secure figure. So they feel that it's threatening to learn more about their partner. It's gonna get them closer. But anxious people, they wanna learn as much as possible because they think that'll strengthen
the relationship and my partner will stay closer to me because I want to know all about them and they'll keep me safe because I didn't experience that in childhood. So I really love learning about the ways that it again it carries our childhood experiences carry with us throughout our entire lives.
Ernie Reilly (35:35.6)
Good stuff.
Alejandra Rios (35:39.377)
Something else I was thinking of as I heard both Dr. Reilly and Sophia talking is that attempt of attachment, it's to create a sense of safety, felt safety, internal and external, not just, I know that I'm safe from an alligator attack or a bear attack, but I also want to know that I'm safe from the things that are really scary that are more abstract. And a lot of times, trust is one of those foundations we need to feel secure.
Ernie Reilly (35:39.408)
right.
Alejandra Rios (36:09.54)
attached and so when we start feeling like trust is being threatened our safety is being threatened if we don't have secure attachment that can cause us to go into What's the word I'm looking for? Behavior patterns that are not necessarily desirable like we're not acting in the way that's most authentic to ourselves but our protective parts start coming out and in an attempt to protect us and recreate that sense of safety we might actually be creating more harm in that process, so I find that
creating that baseline for trust is one of the more powerful ways to set that foundation, strengthen that foundation. And it's not a one-stop shop where, I've created trust, I'm done. It's an ongoing process. It's a continuous process as we shift through the different phases of life, as we shift through the different phases in our relationship of different phases of the world, whatever it may be. But that trust and that sense of safety is really important.
for it.
Ryan Simpson (37:12.263)
That's so interesting. Especially your last comment about as you move through different phases, because I've only been married seven years, but I feel like we've gone through three or four phases and I'm learning that I am not the person I was on my wedding day and neither is my wife. Right.
Ernie Reilly (37:12.806)
Definitely.
Ryan Simpson (37:36.21)
but we are continually building trust as we become the new version of ourselves as each phase grows and continues. so, having somebody that you can be safe with because of the trust that we built has been really important as things have just kind of, just in our personal story, that radically changed over and over again. And so it's giving me confidence as you're saying these things, Ali.
I really like my wife, so thank you for that. I'm gonna tell her after this. Noel, how have... Go ahead.
Ernie Reilly (38:08.194)
Hey Ryan, makes me think. sorry, it makes me think of my wedding because I've been married 25 years and and at my wedding my best man or at the rehearsal dinner gave a toast and he said it's an old Irish saying may today be the day you loved each other the least. Right, so it's just as you yeah, so as you're going older and you're connecting right and you're working through things and you and you build together.
Ryan Simpson (38:29.937)
Love that!
Ernie Reilly (38:38.15)
you can get closer and closer. I was thinking about what some of the students said with regards to like, Alay brought up the trauma and trauma, right, really can impact where we're stuck in what was then feels like it's now. And so when you have that or when you had an insecure attachment, right, some sort of difficulty with the attachment, then what you have is you have your, your, basically your thinking boss, your prefrontal cortex,
right, is not really quite in charge. And you have the hippocampus, which is basically like the library part of the brain. And you got some old books open, and they got like bold letters saying, bad stuff, bad stuff, right? And then you've got the amygdala part of your brain, the guard dog, and it's just barking super loud, right? Because it thinks something happens, you interpret it this way, the guard dog starts barking, the amygdala rep...
the alarm system is going and then it's really hard to communicate during those times. Imagine if right now we just had a guard dog barking and an alarm system blaring, what's the likelihood we could really hear and understand and connect? We would just be like, Right? But the other, you know, the lid's flipped, right? We're not, we're not hearing each other. So to take that then and put it back then, not have it now of trauma, right?
They're not in that anymore. To help them do that, help them quiet that guard dog, strengthen that prefrontal cortex, close those books, right? The unhealthy books, we want to close them and not just close them, put them on the shelf and push them all the way in. Right? They're always there. We can take them out if we need them. This is, you know, we're not getting rid of them. We're just putting them where we don't need those out like that. Just a couple of thoughts there.
Ryan Simpson (40:36.743)
No, I love that. it's reminding me of a conversation we had about some trauma therapy a few weeks ago, which was that the books are still there. It's not like we're erasing the trauma. We're just changing the way that we use and frame it and think about it within our story, the role that it plays within our everyday thoughts. So it's funny to see how it's all connected, right? Because we only have one brain. OK, I'm going to skip subjects a little bit, though.
Ernie Reilly (40:57.062)
Yeah.
Ryan Simpson (41:05.989)
Toward forgiveness right because one of the biggest ways to build trust and intimacy is to be able to forgive Because we are never going to not need it Especially with our partners. So I do want to ask the students What have you learned about forgiveness in relationships that maybe even challenged your assumptions and and the role that forgiveness plays? Within a relationship. I'd love to start with Noel on this one
Noel Sondermann (41:34.767)
Yeah, sure thing. I think for me, a big assumption that like just growing up and it's definitely not the healthiest one, but I always thought that forgiveness was weakness. I always thought that like I was then being like a doormat if I forgave like something that my partner did or something that like a friend did or even somebody in my family with my mom. I always thought that it was like me being a doormat, but it's actually the opposite. I think it's actually super empowering and like being in the counseling field learning about
forgiveness in that way that it's an empowering process for you. Like you're letting, letting go of like your resentment or your feeling, your bad feelings towards what happened. but forgiveness is also not forgetting. So you're not kind of like you were talking about with the trauma, like the book is still on the shelf, but it's closed so that you're able to kind of move on from it. but yeah, I definitely used to think that forgiving a partner was a weakness, but it's really empowering for you. And then it, allows you to rebuild that trust that is so important.
the foundation as well.
Ernie Reilly (42:38.054)
That's definitely.
Sophia Thonis (42:39.918)
to kind of build off that when the trust is diminished like that, it creates resentment. And from what I've learned and experienced, resentment is like the killer of all relationships. So forgiving hurts yourself in your relationship, or not forgiving, sorry, hurts yourself in your relationship more than just forgiving the person, but also not forgetting and using that to guide your actions in the future.
Alejandra Rios (43:04.448)
I think something else that stands out to me is how Noel said this idea that forgiveness is weakness. And I think that that's much more relatable than people would think. I think that a lot of people might have similar feelings at some point. I think also forgiveness is seen as this rigid happens once or like that phrase forgive and forget and like Noel said, forgiveness does not mean forgetting. I think forgiveness is accountability, not just you holding
another person accountable but holding yourself accountable, holding your boundaries accountable for what you do or don't accept from others towards yourself and the way that you feel that others should be treated, how you should be treated and forgiveness kind of how we talked about phases before it can also come in phases where I've heard people say like I need to forgive them to heal and that's not necessarily the case. Forgiveness is an ongoing process and it doesn't like we said it doesn't mean forgetting.
So you can move forward in baby steps. You can move forward as a team and work on that forgiveness to rebuild that trust because a lot of times regardless, like depending on the context, there's some rupture in the relationship. Something happened where we don't feel connected anymore. We don't have our trust anymore. We don't have our intimacy. We don't have our safety. There's conflict. And to repair that rupture, to repair that relationship and that connection, it takes work.
but I think sometimes that can feel scary. Putting in the work to repair that relationship can feel daunting and in counseling we talk about how there's always hope and you are a person who has grown. Look at where you started however long ago when you were born to five years ago, ten years ago, a year ago, a month ago. You are always becoming a new version of yourself. This relationship is becoming a new relationship as you move forward together.
and forgiveness is possible, it just also might need some patience. It can take some time.
Ernie Reilly (45:11.588)
Yeah, one thought on that.
Ryan Simpson (45:11.612)
I'm
Ernie Reilly (45:13.542)
I'm sorry, yeah, one thought on that is that all and I think this connects right with with what was just said with regards to it. Forgiveness is not just a thing that we do. It's who we become. We become better at being a forgiving person. We're becoming good at this. It's like learning how to use power tools or something. You become really handy, right? It's great to be really handy or it's great to be athletic. You don't just go for one
one run, I did it, right? You become good at running or good at whatever it is that you do and forgiveness is just something else that we can be good at and it's a really, really super useful thing to do. If we don't have forgiveness in a relationship, we don't have a relationship. It is, because you know there's gonna be things that happen, just there always are.
There's always things that in therapy a lot of times we talk about the frequency of the issue, the intensity of the issue, and the duration of the issue. And we're always trying to decrease the frequency of the bad things and increase the frequency of good things, and decrease the intensity of the bad things and increase the intensity of the good things, and decrease the duration of the bad things, right, and increase the duration of good things, right? So we're trying to do that, but just because we decrease the frequency doesn't mean we get it to zero.
Progress isn't probably going to look like there's no frequency of ever any bad things. There's no intensity of any bad things. There's no duration, like the bounce back is instantaneous. No, there's going to be things that occur. So becoming a forgiving person is real important. And learning how there's lots of pieces of being forgiving. For instance, in the forgiveness research, we talk about the injustice gap. How do you reduce the injustice gap between what should be?
And what was? There's certain things that should have been this way, but it wasn't. It was this. One way that we can do that, there's lots of ways to do that, but one way is if you're in a relationship is learning how to apologize well, own things, and repair them.
Ernie Reilly (47:21.976)
A good apology, lot of people don't know what a good apology is. They just go back to when they were five and mom or dad said, say you're sorry to your brother or your sister. I'm sorry. Right. You know, we really want to be able to say, I'm sorry and name it like I'm sorry for such and such. And then this is an essential piece, I think. And here's why I'm sorry. If I've wronged you, I'm sorry for wronging you because you deserved for me to do that the better way. You deserve to be treated better than that.
That should have been this way and it wasn't. I let you down on that. So if I can identify what I did, why it was wrong, like what should have happened, and then I can connect with what I'm going to do or have already done or am doing to improve that, to repair that, then when you get to will you forgive me, it makes sense. Then it makes sense. If I've really done all that,
People want to forgive if those things are right. So teaching people how to do a good apology. Teaching people to let go of where they're being triggered by, we talked about trauma, where they're being triggered about some old thing. So yes, this person did this thing, but we're reacting on a one to 10 scale. It was like a level three, but we're reacting like it's a nine or a 10 or a 93, right?
when it's really a of a smaller thing, teaching people how to do that well, forgiveness can really, really, really be something that just, it's like the hinge to the door. It opens up the door. If the hinge isn't working, we want to put some oil on that, get that moving, because it's essential for things to work. If you don't have forgiveness, you're not going to have a relationship because you're going to have injuries. It's going to happen.
You've got to be able to bounce back and forgiveness is a great part of being able to bounce back.
Ryan Simpson (49:24.199)
One of the best analogies I've ever heard about the role of forgiveness, and it's funny that Sylvia kind of mentioned this, that conflict and even the small little things, they plant seeds of resentment in a relationship and forgiveness is weeding. You weed out those seeds before they have a chance to germinate and establish roots and it keeps your relationship, your garden healthy. And the sooner that you can do it and the more accountable it is, the more thorough
your reading process. I love that there's obviously comprehensive knowledge here about the role of forgiveness. And so I think couples should be very confident that this is a good place, the counseling corner and its team to know what to do and how to forgive and how to be accountable and not just sweeping things or expecting people to move on. It's not one to spell. we're just not, go ahead.
Ernie Reilly (50:18.618)
Yeah, Rod, real quick with that one, couple comments. One, if you don't get those weeds out, that resentment, it can become bitterness, right? And bitterness and resentment are like, it's like having a python loose in your house. I mean, you just, know, ober. You know, it's just gonna, you gotta get that out of there. If you don't do that, it's so, so dangerous. But if you learn how to do that, it can be so freeing.
Ryan Simpson (50:33.597)
poison.
Ernie Reilly (50:47.064)
we can have just great relationships. And to get to walk through this, right, I think all of the interns and students that we have today, they're just already seeing it as such an honor to walk through this process with couples and see families heal. just generations are changed when you change your relationship. It can really change generations and generations because what mom and dad do impacts the kids.
Ryan Simpson (51:03.901)
Mm-hmm.
Ernie Reilly (51:16.454)
And so it's just such an honor to get to walk with couples and it's an honor to get to walk through, you know, this process with students like these, these three are great students and we've got a bunch of students that are just so wonderful and seeing them get, you know, it's neat to work with clients, but it's neat to get to see these interns go out and know that they're going to be helping all these, all these clients. Just a couple of thoughts I wanted to throw in there.
Ryan Simpson (51:40.754)
I love that you should be very proud of these three and what they're going to do. It's multiplying impact for sure. So we're coming up on the end of our time, but we always like to spend a little bit of time busting myths, busting counseling myths on our show. So I'd love for you to just share with me one common marriage myth that studying counseling has helped you let go of. So what's the myth?
Why can you let go of it once the truth?
Sophia Thonis (52:14.988)
I can start.
I the most common myth that's told to every single couple is never go to bed angry. And I don't necessarily agree with that. I talked about flipping your lid. If two people are in their emotional states of mind, you're not going to reach a resolution to an argument until you are both in your logical forward-thinking states of mind. So sometimes going to bed is what gets you there. But at that same time, it doesn't mean you should neglect your normal nightly routines. They'll sleep in the same bed.
each other, that you love each other. That way the foundation is still there. Hey, I don't hate you. I'm just kind of mad right now and we'll talk about it later. So it's okay to go to bed angry with these conditions.
Ryan Simpson (52:59.709)
think those conditions are probably smart, but yeah, that's a good one. And that's been real. I've been convicted about that as well, but have found like there's just no way. Like we're gonna be up until five and then nothing's gonna get done because I'm barely human by two. So yeah, no, that's a good one. All right, Ali, what's yours?
Alejandra Rios (53:21.67)
I'm thinking, I think Sophia had mentioned it earlier, but this perception that social media creates of what a healthy relationship looks like, of what a perfect relationship looks like, what a perfect two individuals look like, and I think that we need to remember that social media is social media for a reason. It is people showing off the best sides of themselves and not always the most authentic, and so it creates this this myth and message of
so my relationship doesn't have hope. I don't have hope. I'm never going to get better. I'm never going to look like that. I'm never going to be like that. And I think those nevers become very, very strong. And I feel the opposite. I feel that there is always hope for individuals, for couples, for marriages. I think that the hope has like, it's kind of talking about that weed analogy. I think hope is a seed. And I think seeds
grow when they are nurtured, when you water them, when you give them an appropriate amount of sunlight, because everything in moderation, every plant is going to be different. I think needing needs as they are communicated, as they are discovered, because sometimes I see couples talk about how, well, I don't know what I need right now. And that's okay. You're learning. This is your first time on this earth for most people. And I think that it's okay to recognize that you do have hope and it is a seed.
and if we can just find that seed. Let's figure out together whether it's in your relationship or here in a couple session, what does your seed need to flourish, to blossom, and to nurture that growth.
Ryan Simpson (55:07.505)
and it's usually not Instagram.
Ernie Reilly (55:11.6)
Right, right.
Noel Sondermann (55:12.65)
That was so beautiful, Ally. I'm like almost in tears over here. That was so perfectly said. Okay, my myth is gonna be a little bit more like, I don't know, clear and cut, but I think that a myth that counseling has busted for me is that marriage is 50-50. Like each partner is always giving like 50-50 to their relationship and that's just impossible. That's just not true. I think that there's gonna be times
Ryan Simpson (55:13.085)
Alright Newell, bring us home.
Noel Sondermann (55:41.364)
when you need more from the relationship and when your partner needs more from the relationship. So keeping score will do no good there. Really just being able to be flexible with your partner and giving that partner what they need or asking for what you need in the relationship and not just accepting things from one another because that's what society expects from us is to always be at our 100 and give our 100. So I think yeah, giving yourself grace, give your partner grace, that kind of thing.
Ernie Reilly (56:09.656)
yeah, Noel with that, one of the things that I hear all the time is people will come in and they'll say, if he loved me or if she loved me, they would know without me having to ask. They would do it without me having to ask. So going along with that, we have to be able to identify what are our needs, share that. This other person doesn't have, you know, extra sensory perception of what's going on with you and they could just...
Just know, right? And people will think that they should. Another myth is that it should be easy. Love should be easy. No, it's hard work. It takes a lot. Things that are worth something are worth doing well, and they're typically hard. You don't get, if you ask an 85 year old, 98 year old, right? was life hard, they'll say life was hard, but it was worth it. Right? Life is hard, but it's worth it.
Noel Sondermann (56:36.935)
You You
Ernie Reilly (57:06.278)
Love, connect, do the work. What else are you going to do? Sit around, watch TikTok and learn, you know, stuff that's not good? No, put effort in. I'm not trying to bash social media, but there is a lot of nonsense out there. But if you can realize it is hard work, it is hard work and it's supposed to be hard. It's like school. It's supposed to be hard. That's why you feel so good when you get through it. Right? And when you...
A good workout is supposed to be hard. If you just go to a workout and you just sit and eat pizza, you're not gonna feel so good at the end of that workout. You might like the pizza, but you're not gonna feel good. Hard work is something that things that matter. It takes hard work.
Sophia Thonis (57:49.456)
kind of wanted to build off that for a second, the first part. think bringing it back to a place of TikTok and social media, something people say a lot is if he wanted to, he would. People will like comment that on people's posts about their own relationship. And back to that garden analogy, I feel like that's like throwing toxic waste in your garden. It's just not gonna help anything. Can't expect, like you were saying, Dr. Reilly, your partner to read your mind.
Ernie Reilly (58:12.998)
Right. Very true.
Ryan Simpson (58:14.909)
I'm so guilty of that and that's one of the areas I've had to grow so much in my relationship because oh my goodness, I didn't even know. I didn't even know it was coming in and then thank goodness my wife is actually studying counseling as well. So she was like, hey, stop it. And I was like, all right, fair, fair, help me. So we're doing it together. It's been great. But now she's going to feel super validated listening to this episode.
Ernie Reilly (58:36.198)
You
Ernie Reilly (58:41.872)
That's awesome.
Ryan Simpson (58:45.701)
And that's fine. She deserves it. Well, if you can't tell me, I'm going to talk to our listeners real quick. If you can't tell the counseling corner, we believe marriage is something worth learning and growing at on every stage. And if you're curious how marriage or couples counseling can strengthen your relationship, give us a call or visit counseling corner dot net to learn more or book a session. We've got offices in Orlando, Clermont and Orange City as well. I want to say thank you again, everybody, for coming on. This has been a lot of fun.
You're all very inspiring. I'm very confident about the future of mental health, at least in our city, if not our country, because you guys are part of it. So thank you so much. Everybody, you've been listening to Real Life Counseling, a podcast by the Counseling Corner. Big thank you to our interns. Big thank you to Dr. Ernie. If this conversation has encouraged you, please share it with a couple or a friend who might need a reminder that healthy relationships take work. The work is worth it. The work is good.
The work is the good. So please go share it, take a minute to review us, subscribe on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening, or visit us on YouTube if you want to watch the video recording. But that is all for us. Have a great week, everybody. Take care of yourselves and those you love. Everybody, I will see you soon. Have a good weekend.
Ernie Reilly (01:00:05.552)
Thank you, Ryan.